In Solidum: An Interview with Astra Taylor

DB: Introduce yourself! 

I’m a filmmaker, writer, and co-founder of the Debt Collective. Earlier this year I released a documentary called “What Is Democracy?” (which you can access here), and in May I published a companion book called Democracy May Not Exist, but We’ll Miss It When It’s Gone. Democracy is this word we hear all the time but rarely pause to reflect on, let alone attempt to take to its logical, radical conclusion. Both projects make the case that we do not live in anything resembling democracy and that our political problems go back much further than the election of 2016 (I’m sure DSA members will agree!). They also try to ask bigger questions about what democracy means and what it could be.

DB: You’ve got a long activist background. What was your first movement moment? How did it influence your outlook on organizing in general? 

The tail end of the global justice movement. I was a teenager during the protests against the World Trade Organization (WTO) ministerial meetings in Seattle, and I was riveted. I followed the events in the news and also attended a demonstration or two in Washington DC. Ultimately I saw how fragile mass movements can be. Protesters were mocked by the mainstream press and attacked by the state, especially after 9-11. But in retrospect the protesters were completely correct in their analysis, and the “teamster/turtle” alliance that was then being forged in response to inequitable international trade deals was so crucial—no wonder the ruling class wanted it suppressed. Sadly, a lot of that terrain has been ceded to the right (think of Trump and his trade deal rants) because the left was beaten down, which is a real tragedy.

Watching those events unfold, I came to appreciate that movement moments, as you call them, can be fleeting. As a consequence, I’ve always tried to: first, seize those moments when they present themselves and not just criticize from the sidelines; and second, contribute to building institutions that have more staying power. That’s why I threw down during Occupy Wall Street, even if I didn’t always agree with the overall approach, and why I committed to helping create an organization out of the energy and class rage that was so palpable in the encampments. The result is the Debt Collective, a union for debtors that launched the first student debt strike in history in 2015 and has won over a billion dollars of debt relief for our members and influenced the student debt cancellation/free college policy proposals now being floated by 2020 presidential candidates. Everyone should use our tools to dispute any debts in collections or garnishments they may have.

DB: Your new book and film address democracy. What do you think is the most important thing when it comes to democracy in movements and left organizations? What makes a movement or organization democratic?

My book is all about why democracy is difficult to implement, even on a small scale—but worth aspiring to nevertheless. Depending on the specific context and goals of a movement, a group will likely have to emphasize different aspects of democracy, sometimes at the expense of others. And that’s OK. It’s not obvious how to perfectly balance between ends and means, for example, or structure and spontaneity—we need to experiment and reassess. As organizers we also need to think about people’s varying capacities, and the fact that not everyone has the time, resources, or expertise to participate in exactly the same way or to the same degree. “To each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs” is a good guiding motto. And accountability is key. I don’t think everyone needs to be involved in every little decision, but they do need to know who is making decisions and why.

DB: What do you think democratic socialism means right now? What can it mean in the future?

As I wrote recently in a piece for the New Republic, I think people are gravitating towards the idea of socialism because it means the possibility of having a future. The system we have has brought us to an untenable situation: an economic, political, social, and ecological crisis. We need to change course and de-commodify and democratize huge areas of our lives. But as I write in the piece, transcending capitalism is just the beginning. Freeing ourselves from a system that concentrates wealth and power will clear the way for us to wrestle with a bunch of thorny democratic questions, conundrums embedded in the idea of socialism we don’t have ready-made answers to. I name some of them in the article: “How much top-down planning will be required to create an ecologically sustainable economy or just a functional one? And how will markets, money, and finance be democratized and fit into the mix? How should we balance collective ownership of our natural common wealth with local and worker control—and how do we combine local and worker control with the ideal of international solidarity? How are the boundaries of decision-making communities to be determined and accountability to be enforced?” These are the sorts of questions we will need to grapple with when billionaires are abolished.

DB: Your work on democracy makes me think of Stuart Hall’s phrase (that he takes from Marx) “unity in difference.” Is it feasible to create unity in difference in the U.S. right now? What are the places where you see that happening most, either actually or potentially?

Yes, it’s possible, even if it’s difficult and powerful interests are aligned against this work and profit from division. I definitely see solidarity in our debtor organizing, where people from all walks of life and geographical regions find common cause demanding the abolition of predatory loans and the provision of public goods, including free and universal healthcare and education; I see it in the work at the border, where people risk their own freedom by assisting and advocating for others in need (especially since simple acts like offering water, shelter, or transit are now being criminalized); I see it in organizing for climate justice, particularly when there is an internationalist lens; I see it in the growing waves of strikes and labor agitation.

I love Stuart Hall, but instead of the phrase “unity in difference” I would just say “solidarity,” which is obviously a hugely important word to those of us on the left. Solidarity is powerful because it isn’t an identity but an orientation—it shatters the boundaries of identity by connecting us with others; it is rooted in common struggle not sameness. As I write in a forthcoming essay, solidarity also always has a material dimension, and this is key. The roots of the word actually reach back to the ancient Roman Empire. When people held a debt in common, they were said to hold it “in solidum.” You either bailed each other out or sunk together. What could better describe our collective situation today? Solidarity forever if we want to have a fighting chance of a better future.